The 2013 Cleveland Indians thread

[Denny]

The five universities who obtained tribal approval were named after the specific tribes, not the more generic "Indians".

Frankly I would just get rid of the Chief Wahoo logo, as an insensitive cultural artifact from a more racist time. I have had several conversations with friends here locally (I live in Minnesota) about the name....and it's tough to argue that it's not meant to be racist or insulting when the logo is a grinning red caricature. While I am fond of the Indians name and think it is probably not offensive enough to need changing, frankly I find the whole Chief Wahoo thing to be a complete embarrassment which actively decreases my enthusiasm for the team.

Heck, the fact that the team hasn't won the World Series since they adopted the current logo should be reason enough to be rid of it.

[Evas]

I pretty much agree that the name is probably not offensive in and of itself. I could see the argument comparing it to the Vikings of the Fighting Irish. Other than references to the word "tribe", there isn't even a whole lot of actual references to Indian culture or stereotypes used by the team any more. Nothing like the "Tomahawk Chop".

But Chief Wahoo? Hard to defend. Even just the name itself. That fire engine red grinning face just screams olde-tyme racism.

When I personally look at the Chief Wahoo logo I hardly even see a face because it has just always been associated with baseball to me as far back as I can remember. But the logo is easily to most racist logo I can think of. Far worse than even the Redskins' logo (though I think the Indians name is not nearly as bad). Chief Wahoo probably needs to be retired as an active part of the Indians uniforms at least. I think it can continue to exist for "retro" type merchandise and that sort of thing. Over time it will fade away. But having it out there day after day is insensitive.

This old poster puts it in to perspective in my opinion:

[Bill]

I think the Indians have tried to distance themselves from the Chief Wahoo in the past 10-15 years. There was a brief period in the early 2000s where Chief Wahoo was missing from anything official (uniform, promotional material, licensed merchandise, etc...). I kinda call this the Script I era. This policy has seemingly backslid a bit as they now wear the Chief Wahoo hat in their road unis (or at least one of their unis) and the Chief Wahoo hat is easy to find in stores.

In general, I give them some credit in trying to find new ways to promote the team and their past without using Chief Wahoo (the current Block C and throwback cream uniforms). But I agree it's pretty hard to argue that the logo is not a racist symbol from a bygone era.

[Arroyos]

Not to defend the Chief Wahoo image, but just out of curiosity, what makes one image racist and another not? Case in point: no one seems upset over the smiling Eskimo on the tail fin of Alaska Airlines. But it is essentially the same image, is it not?

[Borealis]

Great point Bob!

As for Indians, I agree with most in that I don't find the name that offensive - actually I might be in a minority of one, in that I have zero problem with it. As mentioned above - Vikings, Fighting Irish... Hell, even Giants could be termed offensive to the genetically challenged (as opposed to midgets, dwarfs, etc...)... where do you draw the line. Frankly, I don't even mind the old school Chief Wahoo logo. When will society stop worrying about these sorts of things and accept them for what they become - historical symbols of our sports teams and no more; not racist epitaphs. Come on... Why would someone have called - and continued to call, their team the Indians if it was meant to be negative? It's not like we have the Atlanta Ni**ers taking the field!

These names come from our innate human need to label things - to name them. That's an offshoot of our intelligence, curiosity and language. It is unique to us. Lions don't crawl the plains of Africa thinking, "I gotta get me some honky meat today"... Where this name thing goes awry is when terms are used spitefully. That certainly is not the case. These terms were used out of awe - Indians, Braves, Warriors and Redskins (ok... this one does bend good taste a bit) were viewed as fierce fighters - a trait you want on the field. Would you want to follow the Chicago Cowards?

Human society will ALWAYS label it's own kind. Maybe one day we will get to the point where we are all 'people' and not black/white/chinese/short - but we will trade it for something else, 'It's that guy with the green hat'... What, you're racist against people with green hats? For calling them what they are? I personally think people need to stop being so sensitive over describers - if you're from China you're chinese, get over it! Think of our sports icons - 49ers, Trailblazers... My family came across the country during the gold rush and were 49ers and Trailblazers - how can you use these offensive terms!? Really? 76ers, Patriots, Mavericks, Brewers... We will be left with Nuggets and Jets or go the way of European soccer and just be cities and sponsors. How boring is that!?!?!

[Evas]

Not to defend the Chief Wahoo image, but just out of curiosity, what makes one image racist and another not? Case in point: no one seems upset over the smiling Eskimo on the tail fin of Alaska Airlines. But it is essentially the same image, is it not?

I think the difference is that the Alaska Airlines logo is more like an actual drawing of a person, rather than a wildly exaggerated caricature that plays to specific stereotypes.

[Arroyos]

Not to defend the Chief Wahoo image, but just out of curiosity, what makes one image racist and another not? Case in point: no one seems upset over the smiling Eskimo on the tail fin of Alaska Airlines. But it is essentially the same image, is it not?

I think the difference is that the Alaska Airlines logo is more like an actual drawing of a person, rather than a wildly exaggerated caricature that plays to specific stereotypes.

Apparently the image comes from an old photograph of Oliver Amouak, an Inupiat Eskimo. Neither the original photographers nor Oliver were ever compensated for the use of the image. So whether it's racist or not, the Alaska Airlines logo certainly exploits a man, his family, his tribe and his ethnic group.

Now that the Inuit peoples (of which the Alaska Inupiat are one group) are suffering from the effects of global warming, they may be less tolerant of an image of one of their own used to promote an airline company whose air service has helped subvert their native way of life and contributed to global warming.

Some of you might remember a series of stories I wrote about the little village of Kivalina, where the Dozers have a minor league team. The residents there are Inupiat. And they continue to have problems because of global warming.

[Bill]

Back on the field, I can't believe anybody thinks this is a good idea...

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-l ... --mlb.html

Not that I particularly want to give Lonnie Chisenhall anymore ABs either. But I don't like this plan one bit.

[Borealis]

Back on the field, I can't believe anybody thinks this is a good idea...

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-l ... --mlb.html

Not that I particularly want to give Lonnie Chisenhall anymore ABs either. But I don't like this plan one bit.

On this, the End of The 'Stick, I present you a Candlestick All-Time High-Low Moment... It could be worse...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ino98pZbtRA

[Bill]

On this, the End of The 'Stick, I present you a Candlestick All-Time High-Low Moment... It could be worse...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ino98pZbtRA

I will accept Santana at third if he hits 2 homers every game.

[Shinkansen]

Back on the field, I can't believe anybody thinks this is a good idea...

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-l ... --mlb.html

Not that I particularly want to give Lonnie Chisenhall anymore ABs either. But I don't like this plan one bit.

On this, the End of The 'Stick, I present you a Candlestick All-Time High-Low Moment... It could be worse...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ino98pZbtRA

He more then made up for those 4 errors...

[Arroyos]

On this, the End of The 'Stick, I present you a Candlestick All-Time High-Low Moment... It could be worse...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ino98pZbtRA

Michael, thanks for the memories. What a great baseball game that was! I remember reading about it, marveling over it, wishing I'd been in the Stick to see it. Though it could be a horrible place to watch baseball, so cold and windy, I have some fond memories of Candlestick.

The first game I saw there, must have been 1961 or 62, I remember watching Bill Virdon make an amazing catch sliding on his knees. And I remember an old lady (at the time, I thought she was old, but I was a kid, so she may have only been middle age) who stood and yelled her heart out every time Willie Mays came to the plate: "Hit dat ball, Willie, you hit dat ball!"

Willie finally did hit one and she was the happiest adult I'd ever seen.

[Dinosaurs]

On this, the End of The 'Stick, I present you a Candlestick All-Time High-Low Moment... It could be worse...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ino98pZbtRA

I will accept Santana at third if he hits 2 homers every game.

"If" he is not a disaster at 3B, I like the idea of him there against LHP since Chisenhall struggles so much against them.

[Zephyrs]

I wanted to share an very interesting article on baseball payroll vs. revenue. I found the 'Average Fan Cost' to be a particularly interesting concept.


"Let’s go back and look at the comparison between Cleveland and Detroit. The Indians finished the season with 92 wins, while the Tigers finished with 93. The Indians drew 1.57M in attendance, while the Tigers drew 3.08M. Just taking into account average ticket prices, and leaving out the stadiums operating income, this translates into a $50.2M revenue advantage for the Tigers over the Indians. Calculate those numbers using total average fan cost and that gap widens to a $97.7M advantage for Detroit. This is why they are able to afford a payroll that is about $70M more than the Indians."

[Mike Dunn]

Whoa. Lonnie

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ss ... halls.html

Of course I don't have him on either of my rotisserie teams.