What do we believe when sabermetrics fails us?

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John
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What do we believe when sabermetrics fails us?

#1 Post by John »

Ken Arneson wrote:The A’s have had 14 chances in the last 14 years to win a game to advance to the next round of the playoffs. They have lost 13 of those 14 games. If the playoffs are truly a crapshoot, the odds of this happening are 1-in-1,170. (So it’s not technically always — they could have gone on to lose the 2006 ALDS against the Twins, too, which would have made them 0-for-16, with an unlikelihood odds of 1-in-65,536. So if you want to look on the bright side, things could be 56 times worse than they are.) And in a crapshoot, the odds of the Giants winning 10 playoff series in a row, as they have now done, is 1-in-1024.

So if you’re an A’s fan who hates the Giants, and who believes that the playoffs are a just crapshoot, you’ve been struck with a series of unfortunate events that had literally less than a 1-in-a-million chance of happening.

Sabermetrics has come up with no good explanation for it except to say, well, these things happen about once every thousand times, or once every million times, sorry A’s fans, it just happened to be your turn to hit that unfortunate lottery, and it’s just bad luck. ... the sabermetrician dives into the numbers, and pulls some out numbers with some number-pulling-out tools, and finds nothing to report. Nope, no evidence here of anything, so it must just be bad luck.

To which I ask: what if the reason the number-pulling-out tools can’t find any cause for the problem is because those number-pulling-out tools themselves are the problem?
Here's a mind-expanding essay on baseball for you. What happens when our statistical analysis fails to explain what we witness with our eyes? Could it be because our analytical tools are insufficient, or we aren't even focusing on the right thing? Could we even be lauding teams for cleverly exploiting market inefficiencies when they're really handicapping their rosters come playoff time by leaving off bad ball-swinging players like Pablo Sandoval? Why aren't we paying more attention to what Arneson argues is the core of the game: pitch selection and what happens when a batter does/doesn't get the pitch he's expecting?

Weighty stuff. Definitely worth your time to read.
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Re: What do we believe when sabermetrics fails us?

#2 Post by Arroyos »

John wrote: Here's a mind-expanding essay on baseball for you. What happens when our statistical analysis fails to explain what we witness with our eyes? Could it be because our analytical tools are insufficient, or we aren't even focusing on the right thing? Could we even be lauding teams for cleverly exploiting market inefficiencies when they're really handicapping their rosters come playoff time by leaving off bad ball-swinging players like Pablo Sandoval? Why aren't we paying more attention to what Arneson argues is the core of the game: pitch selection and what happens when a batter does/doesn't get the pitch he's expecting?

Weighty stuff. Definitely worth your time to read.
Fascinating, but really wrong headed. Arneson needs to get his head out of statistical models and watch human behavior, especially complex motor activities like hitting a ball or walking.

Arneson wants to be able to delineate each step in the mental process of a hitter as he decides to swing at a pitch. But his model is flawed. He's working from a systems model, a computer model, assuming human brain and human muscles make decisions the way a computer does. There's no evidence that's how our bodies work.

To do something simple, like walking, we don't process a series of decisions in order to choose which foot to put out first, how to rotate weight to that leg, push off with the back leg, balance the weight shift and then swing the trailing leg forward to repeat the process. We just let our muscles remember how to do it. There's no cognitive processing.

That's what Arneson has forgotten. There's no cognitive process in swinging at a pitch. A player's MUSCLES determine if, when and where to swing with no conscious, cognitive input. There's no time. The brain is a much slower processor than muscles. Before we can even project where the pitch is going to cross the plate, it already has. If we're going to hit it, we literally stop conscious thought and allow the body to respond more quickly. The body has learned how to hit the ball through sheer repetition and constant refinement. The brain, at least the cognitive part of the brain, the part that uses systems like Arneson employs, is relatively uninvolved in simple physical activities.

Remember how we learned to ride a bike? It's an amazing thing to watch. The brain doesn't do much. If we think about balancing, we lose balance. We have to trust the muscles will balance us without us thinking about it. The sense of balance is located principally in our inner ear, and we learn to FEEL how it works. We don't learn to control how it works with our brain. There is no step-by-step process to master, it's a holistic sensation.

We would never use the flow chart-like processes Arneson describes to teach a child to walk. In fact, we wisely don't do anything to teach children to walk, except walk around them (so they see it can be done) and encourage their earliest efforts to stand on two legs. They learn to walk by trusting the sensations that lead to walking: balance, leg movement, etc. And none of it is conscious or cognitive. The brain, if it's involved at all, is only involved deep in the stem where unconscious muscular memory resides.

The first clue to how wrong Arneson is lies in his decision to use the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis from linguistics as a model for how to think about the incredibly complex motor skill of swinging a bat. The Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis has been debunked. Most linguists have abandoned it. The traditional examples of how language shaped thought (Eskimos have more words for "snow," or the difference between words for "opinion" and "belief" in English and Swedish) have been mistaken, or based on misunderstandings. Eskimos don't have many more words for "snow" than New Englanders, for example. And Swedes can get just as touchy about the differences between "opinion" and "belief" as can their English-speaking counterparts.

Linguists wanted so much to believe that language shaped thought (just think what a boost that gives to your academic specialty!) that they found examples to support the hypothesis and ignored all the instances when the hypothesis didn't work.

Ditto for sabermetrics. We can find dozens of instances when intense statistical analysis yields nifty distinctions and parallels with actual experience, but we have to ignore the many many times when stats cannot explain events in order to believe, as Arneson wants to believe, that someday, somehow, we can explain why one team wins and another loses.

We never will. Too much uncertainty and too many unknowable causes intervene. And then there's luck, which is simply random chance when it appears to form a pattern.

Baseball is essentially unknowable. Isn't that great?
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Re: What do we believe when sabermetrics fails us?

#3 Post by roncollins »

It is always going to be "wrong" to apply statistics developed on large sample sizes (even if the tools are properly applied) to individual cases for the purposes of prediction. You cannot, for example, say the As had 50% chance to win each of 14 specific games--hence the coin flip concept is misguided. I would be more interested in the Vegas lines for the A's chances to win each of the 14 games they played. But, regardless, the well-applied use of Sabermetric concepts and other data analysis will still not guarantee anything on the field.
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Re: What do we believe when sabermetrics fails us?

#4 Post by Borealis »

This article that came out at the start of the post-season may shed some additional light on the process...
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Re: What do we believe when sabermetrics fails us?

#5 Post by Lions »

I read the article earlier today and had a similar reaction to Bob's, although not one I could've articulated as lucidly. I also asked myself several times "so what?". Even if some of the things he believes are actually true, I'm not yet entirely sure how knowing them would impact an individual player's approach or the team strategy. Some of the others are founded on things I'd agree with or even think are no brainers, but then go in odd directions. Like the idea of biomechanics and psychology being the basis of truths, but then dismissing the psychological impact of working with a catcher you trust versus one you don't.

The most intriguing idea to me was the idea that the Sandoval's of the world demonstrate a skill that other, more disciplined players don't. However, I would also think that's one of the easier theories to put to the statistical test. Do players like Sandoval perform better against tougher pitchers? Do they perform better in the postseason? Things like that are measurable.

Ultimately, I think the thought behind this, that there are things that statistics can't or don't show us is a good one. Most serious sabermetricians will not only admit that but embrace it.
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Re: What do we believe when sabermetrics fails us?

#6 Post by Rory »

John this is one awesome thread.

The Sabermetrics "fail"(imo) my friends is another great example to why Baseball is the perfect game.

Suits try to put all these numbers together to try and conquer a truly human game. Numbers don't win and loose ball games.
It's what's inside the human at a given point in time that decides who completes the pitch, the hit and the play.
The players who can find that point in time better than the player across from him, will decide who wins and who looses.
And trying to record whats inside a human at a given point in time? Well good luck with that Sabermetricians. :chatter:
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Re: What do we believe when sabermetrics fails us?

#7 Post by Alleghenies »

Cliff Hangers wrote:It is always going to be "wrong" to apply statistics developed on large sample sizes (even if the tools are properly applied) to individual cases for the purposes of prediction. You cannot, for example, say the As had 50% chance to win each of 14 specific games--hence the coin flip concept is misguided. I would be more interested in the Vegas lines for the A's chances to win each of the 14 games they played. But, regardless, the well-applied use of Sabermetric concepts and other data analysis will still not guarantee anything on the field.
This was my first thought that I had while reading. Every team has their strengths and weaknesses, even the intangible ones that we do not have any statistics for. It could something as little as the way the teams hitting coach tells the players to watch for something specific that only he noticed the opposing team does. Who knows, but I don't think Sabermetric statistics fails us, baseball is just random. I'm reminded of that experiment where you make up the results from 100 coin tosses, so that when held up to the real 100 coin tosses, a third party person cannot tell the difference. In reality, the real life 100 coin toss experiment has a surprising amount of times where the coin hits Tails numerous times in a row, more than most people think. Most people look at the paper, and pick the fake human created one that goes like HTHTHHHTTHHTTHTHT... where in real life it could easily look like HTTTTTTTHHHTTHHHTTTTTTTT.......

I think sometimes our human minds put too many constraints on what should happen because we underestimate how often things in nature just occur like that coin toss.
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