Tempe's farm system

[Matt]

Tempe claims I did a hatchet job on him in my minor league write-up. This from a guy who once set me on fire. He's lucky I only used a keyboard. But I digress....

Anyway, I was very harsh on Tempe. But, I honestly believe, fairly accurate in my criticisms. My criticisms were meant more as an intervention, in attempt to point out what I see as obvious problems that he needs to correct in short order if he ever hopes to compete.

But, posing the question to the rest of the league, I will leave it for you to decide. Was I too harsh, or is Tempe running his farm system and his team into the ground through serious mismanagement? I am certainly not averse to taking my own criticisms, so let's hear what everyone else might have to say.

Here is my own personal opinion, beyond what I put in the write-up. Chris is a very knowledgeable when it comes to baseball and baseball history. In this regards, there are few who compare. He also does fairly well in fantasy leagues. My criticism here is that he seems to fail to grasp some of the concepts of running a complete organization and the concepts around which this game of ours is based. Evidence to support my case beyond what is in the minor league write up includes complaints about market size and inability to sign free agents, complaints about the scouting when the game version switched from 8 to 9, complaints about the coaching, complaints about last years draft pool being more of "cess pool" with everything after the third round being a waste of time. I don't see other small market teams making the same excuses, mostly I see them having a plan that works around that obvious issue. Most teams seem to have grasped that the scouting changed in a way that makes it more imperative that we do our own assessments and projections of young players, but explaining this to Tempe something seems to get lost in the translation.

I would love to hear other opinions here. Either I was way off base, or maybe you agree and might offer some insight that will help Tempe going forward. Maybe someone can explain some of the concepts in a way that gets through to him where I have obviously failed. A third option is you can tell me to just shut up and let him do it his way because it's really really fun to watch a train wreck.

[James Bowman]

I know that you guys know each other in real life, and you are always throwing jabs at each other here on the forums, so honestly I didn't really think anything of it.

It's definitely a brutal analysis, more so than for any other team. But, I didn't take it too seriously, and just assumed you guys know your limits with each other, and it was within those limits.

I don't think I'd go as far as to criticize Chris for the way he runs his organization, but I'd agree that there are some things I would do differently.

[Badgers]

I didn't think much of it. The words were harsh, yes, but they were true.

[Maulers]

I know that you guys know each other in real life, and you are always throwing jabs at each other here on the forums, so honestly I didn't really think anything of it.

It's definitely a brutal analysis, more so than for any other team. But, I didn't take it too seriously, and just assumed you guys know your limits with each other, and it was within those limits.

I don't think I'd go as far as to criticize Chris for the way he runs his organization, but I'd agree that there are some things I would do differently.

I second everything that Jon says here. I would also do some things differently (most of which you point out in your analysis, Matt).

[Denny]

I don't think he puts much stock in my opinion, since the one time I tried to lecture him on the evils of rushing prospects to the majors the guy ended up flourishing. So I will refrain from comment on this issue.

[John]

I was of the same opinion expressed by Jon. Knowing that you two are out-of-game friends and like to rib one another, I figure you know the boundaries for how far you can tease before it becomes a problem. As such I felt okay about posting what your wrote. Of course I'm always cognizant of owners' feelings. If I received a complaint from Chris I would have to reexamine the situation, but to this point I haven't.

Hopefully it's all taken in stride. I know I didn't have any problem whatsoever with being labeled half of the "Evil Empire". Actually, I think it's cool: it's a little good-natured ribbing that helps create a "David vs. Goliath" dynamic that I believe is healthy. The little guys should be gunning for the teams on top, and sometimes a little spirited talk is just the thing to get the competitive juices flowing.

More than anything, I think it's important to be able to gauge the temperaments of each owner. One thing you quickly learn when dealing with a group of people is that no two are alike. Everyone has their own interpretations of what's kosher and what crosses the boundaries, and those differences need to be respected. Without being told, I intrinsically know I can kid around a little farther with some people than with others (for instance, I'll pile the grief on Denny... but then he's just asking for it, what with his team's pink uniforms and all ).

As long as those differences are kept in mind, I say go right ahead and have a little fun. And to those on the receiving end, try to take things in stride as much as you can. Most often the intent behind the words is benign. If you do feel someone is going past the line, come speak to me about it before taking it public. I'll do what I can to mediate a solution.

[Matt]

Don't get the wrong impression. Chris and I talked, and we're always cool on that level. But he is still in disagreement with me over some of the concepts, though he did offer very valid explanations as to why certain things have happened.

For instance, injuries at times have caused him to promote players too soon out of necessity. This happens. It's happened in my organization. Sometimes your caught in between a rock and a hard spot there.

But I look at the bigger body of evidence. Mullins, detailed in the Bears report, was just one instance of a good player being released. Donald Hawkins was released at a time when my scouts rated him a 5* stud at catcher. He was obviously a 5* stud when I traded for him from Canton, because if you go back and look at the deal I paid through the teeth on that one, giving up Yamauichi and Ichihara, both of who have become solid pitchers, and a 2nd rd pick. Hawkins has since faded, he's nothing more than a defensive replacement, but at the time Tempe released him he was looking like a GOD. He was released without ever getting an at bat in the minors.

Then other players who had promising careers crushed. There are lots of them. I still think Victor Martinez would have been a GOD if he had not been inserted into the Tempe lineup right away. He should have been developed. He was only 17. Antonio Garcia, as I pointed out, and others. Jeffrey Thomas, recently drafted out of HS is another. My scouts have already downgraded him after his rush job to A ball. At this point, my scout has only one player in the Tempe minor league with a rating of multiple stars, and that is recently drafted 3b Newell. It's just tough to look over at an organization and see it's farm system in such bad shape, and know that at least some of the careers are being ruined because the players are being rushed or just otherwise being moved haphazardly between the levels. A calmer, more patient approach needs to be taken in developing those players.

Properly developing players is a 3 to 5 year plan with them when drafted. Not rushing them based on need at the PEBA level. Not rushing them just because they have potential. Not rushing them because they had a good month at one level. Just like a major league team, there has to be a certain amount of patience employed with the young talent. The vast majority of rookies don't hit the majors until they are 24 or 25 years old.

Those of us who have been in the league from the beginning can certainly chalk up our own mistakes in this area. There is a learning curve. I have learned from my own experience and from watching the development of players in other organizations. More than anything, there was a concentrated effort on my part to help Chris through my criticism.

[Hitmen]

Tempe's not the only one who received a hatchet job.

[Bill]

I thought the analysis was spot-on; just voicing what the rest of us (i.e., me) have been thinking. To parrot a point that John makes from time-to-time though, it's the fact that we don't all agree on everything that makes this league interesting. If Tempe wants to rush and then cut their young guys who I see as talented, I'll pick them off the scrap heap, stash them in my low minors, and hope one of them in the next Pat Holman. In the meantime, he'll grab one of the guys I cut to make room or overlooked entirely, no doubt seeing the next Terry Thornton. If we don't think the other guys in the league do something moronic every once in a while, it's probably time to shuffle on to something else entirely, because we've become like women living together and having the same monthly schedule. That was a run-on sentence, and my mother would be ashamed.

[Ghosts]

dude, that analysis was spot on when it came to bakersfield, that's all i know (even the "expect a precipitous drop part .. that's when i knew you boys did your work).

[Alan Ehlers]

Hey dont make it look like im the only one who was complaining about the scouting, coaches etc, I remember everyone putting their own two cents in. As for free agents not signing with a small market team, that is a valid complaint that all small market teams have. I do not see the Pirates in the Manny sweepstakes, so saying that free agents wont sign because I am a small market team is a legitmate concern. As for ruining players by rushing them to the bigs, my attitude is , if it happens it happens. If a player loses his confidence that easily then I should fire my doctor and hire a therapist instead because it seems by everyones rational that every player here is a head case who cant handle pressure. The bottom line is this , it is my team if I want to run it into the ground I will. Also it is really easy to kick a team when it is down but we will just see where I stand in a few years. I stated when I started that I would not be competitive for 5 years so after that if my team is still in dire straights then I will take some stock in everyones opinion , until then I will continue to manage the way I want.

[Alan Ehlers]

Also in reviewing other peoples minors I do not see where my minors are in such a bad state. If we do not go by stars then how is my minor leagues so radically different? I also see how it seems that I am the only team that releases young players and they do well in other places, also I am the one who ruined Victor Martinez even thou he has been on I think five teams already and if I remember correctly he was usually playing at the major league level. As for Mullins, well he is hitting but he will never be a prospect and he was a second round pick who did not pan out. Lets see then there is Will George who I traded and San Antonio traded also so I can not see the point how I ruined him. Lets see, Oh yea , i was not the one who coined this years draft pool a "cess pool", sorry I said that it was not as good as the previous years but not that exact phrase. I know I mentioned the scouting, but now it seems that I am the one who is getting "thrown under the bus" in terms of no one saying anything. I will stand by my statement that the scouting needs to be addresssed in the new version because a lot of teams lost a lot of potential ratings through 9. I will also stand by my arguement about coaches and how or when is thier impact felt. I really have not seen how they make a difference, nor has anyone given me any concrete proof on their effectiveness. I find it laughable that I need to have stuff explained to me, because I dont get it. I get it believe me I do, it is just I do not take much stock in it. For some people that means that i am running my team into the ground if I do not accept advice like it is dogma. Oh well if everyone wants to take there shots feel free, but I will not back down

[klewis]

I suppose I should put my 2 cents here too.

First of all, I think Matt did an incredible job at tackling the job of profiling all the top prospects of every organization. Something like that takes a lot of time, commitment and effort. I did the part on Tempe was pretty brutal. It was honest but I thought some of the words used were pretty harsh. But now knowing that they know one another in real life, I just see it as good nature ribbing. Who knows, maybe this will provide some good in game rivalry to Tempe and San Antonio heh. But yes, I agree with Matt's assessment of Tempe's farm system. I would have personally used different words to describe it though.

As John mentioned, there's always a fine line between everything and the key is to know where the boundaries are laid for each owner. As for myself, I see OOTP as a game and I say bring it on if you want to criticize or poke fun at my franchise. I'll be sure to dish it out too

I can understand the plight of a small market team (well Florida is more mid-sized than small) but I actually find that part of the fun. Assembling talent is fun but trying to develop and grow your team's finances is fun for me also. We have yet to see revenue sharing in full effect yet so I'm anxious how that helps.

As mentioned before in this thread, having differing opinions and team philosophies makes for a fun and interesting league. So with that said, I have no problem with the way Tempe runs their franchise. It's his franchise and he can run it however he sees fit. It will be interesting to see Tempe 5 years down the road from now and see what happens.

[John]

I think both Joel and Kevin are on to something when they talk about the fact that it's actually good we all have different ways of evaluating players. It really would get boring otherwise. You look at the level of trade activity in this league... I've never participated in a league that featured trade activity even close to this.

Without a doubt, the reason for that level of activity is precisely that we don't all see eye to eye. We've got guys who lean heavily on scouting reports, guys who take a decidedly sabermetric approach to evaluation, guys who like to promote aggressively, guys who are über-conservative with their prospects, and all kinds of shades in between. And because of that we're able to wheel and deal. One man's trash is another man's treasure, as they say.

I love it. People aren't scared to make big deals here because they're convinced that they've got "an angle", so to speak. And that's exactly as it should be. It makes for a dynamic environment where anything can happen. It also means I better not get home late on sim nights... I probably have a crush of trades to process on any given sim,

[Alan Ehlers]

P.S

Matt and I are best friends which is why it sometimes comes across that we are harsh with each other, But the bottom line is that I always has his back even I do not agree with his statements. Also there is not a nicer guy in the world who would give the shirt off your back then Matt. However, he does not know about as much baseball as me LOL, actually we can talk for hours. I dont want people to think there is trouble with matt and I. After all we went grave robbing together and my daughter has zahuge crush on him. Marty is a great guy because there is not a pretensious bone on his body. I have been extremely blessed to have him as a friend for twenty years,