Random Question?

[Zephyrs]

This has ZERO to do with the PEBA, but I was curious....would you pay to be in an OOTP online league?(a fee per season)

My other league has begun this and I was curious about your input...it has caused quite a stir in my other league

[klewis]

I highly doubt I would pay a fee. Then again, it's hard to say without knowing more about the situation. How much is the fee? I would hope the fee is being used to improve the league (i.e. server hosting and space along with other perks).

Unless we are talking about a top caliber league with some extraordinary perks that are revolutionary, I do not see myself paying a fee.

I know OOTP has a future project regarding online leagues and fees. I'm curious how that will turn out.

[Tyler]

As I've recently joined this same league, I'm having an internal debate with myself about how I feel about this. Servers and webspace cost money, and if the commish is paying out of pocket I have no problem with an established league asking for some money from owners to cover these costs.

My hangup is that some of the funds will go to the pockets of the people who run the league as compensation for their time. I'm morally against this (we're all volunteering and doing this for fun, right?) but then I think about the specifics of the league (88 human-run teams! ) and the immense amount of time it takes to input draft picks, run sims, etc. surely ceases to be fun around the 45th sim or so.

So, I guess I don't know.

[Tyler]

I highly doubt I would pay a fee. Then again, it's hard to say without knowing more about the situation. How much is the fee? I would hope the fee is being used to improve the league (i.e. server hosting and space along with other perks).

It's $3 to join the league, $2 for the second season, and $1 for every season after that. The primary goal is to pay for server space, etc., but that's not all the money will be used for.

The league is unique - with 88 GMs, it's impossible to constantly field 88 dedicated owners. One of the reasons the board of directors of the league has stated for the fee is to make sure owners are serious about joining the league.

[Zephyrs]

I was curious if any of you were in this league as well...its a fantastic one

And yes the league fee is quite minimal in my opinion...and there's alot more to the story which I won't get in to; was just curious about the issue in general

[John]

That's indeed an interesting question. I admit that I've given thought to suggesting a seasonal fee with payouts for winning the Planetary Extreme Championship as well as other accomplishments as a floater idea. Since I've already spent some time examining the idea, let me make arguments for both the "yea" and "nay" sides.

On the one hand, I think this could be a fabulous idea because it would insure that everyone has a very tangible reason to put their maximum effort into their teams. Not that owners aren't doing that already, but you know how it is; sometimes perhaps the motivation might be lacking at a given moment in time. Now imagine that you could pocket $200 for winning it all. That would sure act as quite a motivator! I think it would also up the stakes in the rivalries that are naturally developing within our league, and that would be great. Above all, though, it's the potential to give owners something that will keep them actively involved and participating throughout the season - even if their team isn't doing well - that attracts me to this idea.

So those are the positives, and they're significant. Now the downsides:

• No way would we be able to just jump right into a pay structure. It would be something that would have to be implemented multiple seasons into the future, long after we as a group agreed to the idea. This would give teams who are currently in "rebuild mode" a chance to complete that process and have a legitimate shot at competing for the cash.
• You really would have to reward more than just winning the Planetary Extreme Championship. In any given season there's going to be a number of teams that fall out of contention early on. Owners of those teams should have a shot at the money too; otherwise the whole motivation factor is lost. So it'd take more than just agreeing on a fee; we'd also have to agree to a structure for various different payouts, most of which would not be tied to winning. Things like winning "Best of" writing and Executive of the Year awards should earn cash as well.
• As soon as money gets involved, scrutiny of fairness is going to come into play. I can already hear the howls of protest from the current smaller market teams! What I would tell those owners is, "Hey, you may be small market now, but seasons from now when this is implemented you can be in a whole different set of circumstances." That part is true, but there's another angle on the fairness issue. Owners currently in the league have had over a year to complete with me and I think there's a great deal of trust between us all. Potential newcomers to the league don't know me, however, and they may question the legitimacy of a pay-to-play setup where the Commissioner of the league is also an owner eligible to win money. If we were to do this, I would have to be completely ineligible to take away any money whatsoever.

Ultimately, this is something I wouldn't even dream of implementing unless an overwhelming majority of league owners liked the idea. Would I do it myself? Absolutely, but I also would not force it on the group. The fun comes first here, and while I may think a friendly wager would be fun some others may not. We all have different economic situations, and that has to be respected.

A few posts have been made while I was typing that I should address. While I don't know the particulars of the system the other league that's doing this is using, any system we implemented here would be designed to return all the money back to the owners. None of it would go towards server upkeep, and certainly none of it would be pocketed by me (see above). Everything would go into a pool that would be doled out to winners in various different categories. Now it's possible that some of it could be used to purchase something for winners like a trophy or whatnot, but the general idea would be to send the collected money back to the owners in the form of cash.

So, with that being said... what does anyone have to say about a pay-to-play system that rewards both winning and league participation?

[Tyler]

Before I reply to John's actual question, I just want to give him a public shout-out for generally being awesome. I figured he'd probably tossed the idea around in his head, but one thing that I knew I could count on was that the issue would be thoroughly and publicly debated, analyzed, torn to shreds, rebuilt, and then voted on by all 24 members of PEBA, before and such system would be put in place. The level of transparency in this league, as well as John's willingness to place decisions in the hands of the owners even when I know he personally may desire a different outcome than our decision, deserves the respect of all of us here.

I think one of my main hang-ups with the issue in the other league is that the decision was announced - the board of directors discussed in privately, reached a conclusion, and started a thread on the forums saying "this is our decision, and it is final." I think that ruffled some feathers of people who would otherwise not mind the decision one bit.

[klewis]

I'm not sure how I would feel about a pay to play system in PEBA. I do like the fact that all the money returns to the owners in some fashion.

I don't mind paying a small fee to play but probably something I would not do. I have a local work fantasy football league that has a $100 buy in. We have weekly prizes and a decent payout at the end for 1st and 2nd place. The money certainly gives every owner an incentive try their hardest. Aside from the money, I think the beauty of it is because everyone is local so there is trash talk everyday we see one another. Everyone knows one another so that makes the trash talking even more fun.

In contrast, I don't think I play PEBA for that similar aspect. In both leagues (fantasy football and PEBA), I play because it is fun and enjoyable. But for me, fantasy football is more of a competitive fun thing whereas PEBA is more of relaxing kickback thing.

So between fantasy football and PEBA, I get the best of both worlds (competitive play and relaxing play). With that said, I don't think I would pay a PEBA fee just for a competitive money reward based system since I already get that aspect in fantasy football. I'm more likely to pay for features and perks instead (not sure what type of perks would warrant paying off the top of my head though).

But ummm, I would definitely pay if we started a D&D League! Full with costumes and figurines! Yeeeaahhh!

Okay, so I lied.

[Alan Ehlers]

I would not pay for a Peba league. I think there is enough leagues where you can play for free. If it was me I would establish a PEBA league and give away a trophy or baseball tickets and shoulder the cost because I want the best competition, but that is just me

[Tyler]

I have no problem donating to a league, which is something I feel the other league overlooked. Instead of a mass plea for donations, they went straight to a mandatory fee. I certainly would have no problem donating to PEBA if John says he needs some help (he has once before).

[Hitmen]

It's $3 to join the league, $2 for the second season, and $1 for every season after that. The primary goal is to pay for server space, etc., but that's not all the money will be used for.

The league is unique - with 88 GMs, it's impossible to constantly field 88 dedicated owners. One of the reasons the board of directors of the league has stated for the fee is to make sure owners are serious about joining the league.

Sorry, $3 wouldn't keep me around if I decided to not be dedicated.

I've done online leagues for other sports/interests, and fees usually went to server space and any leftovers to leaguewide TShirts, or minimal trophies for the champions, something like that.

[Tyler]

It's $3 to join the league, $2 for the second season, and $1 for every season after that. The primary goal is to pay for server space, etc., but that's not all the money will be used for.

The league is unique - with 88 GMs, it's impossible to constantly field 88 dedicated owners. One of the reasons the board of directors of the league has stated for the fee is to make sure owners are serious about joining the league.

Sorry, $3 wouldn't keep me around if I decided to not be dedicated.

I've done online leagues for other sports/interests, and fees usually went to server space and any leftovers to leaguewide TShirts, or minimal trophies for the champions, something like that.

Yup, I'm with you on this one.

[Hitmen]

I have no problem donating to a league, which is something I feel the other league overlooked. Instead of a mass plea for donations, they went straight to a mandatory fee. I certainly would have no problem donating to PEBA if John says he needs some help (he has once before).

Amen

[John]

Thanks guys, both for the feedback and the kind words. Donations are always welcome but are absolutely not required. In all honesty, server upkeep through AllSimBaseball is very reasonable and I don't mind paying it. The fun I have with this league makes it completely worth it. I can assure you this much: as long as I'm running the show, no one will be required to pay a fee for upkeep costs.

I'm still interested in hearing owner opinions on a pay-to-play setup that pays out money for both winning and participation. We've heard a couple nay votes - are there any owners who like the idea? Do you believe the stakes would be enjoyably raised for you if you put in, say, $20 at the start of each season and had the chance to win $200 in championship money and $300 in participation money? Or would it be an undue financial burden and/or a distraction from your casual enjoyment of the PEBA? Do share your opinions with us.

[Zephyrs]

Before I reply to John's actual question, I just want to give him a public shout-out for generally being awesome. I figured he'd probably tossed the idea around in his head, but one thing that I knew I could count on was that the issue would be thoroughly and publicly debated, analyzed, torn to shreds, rebuilt, and then voted on by all 24 members of PEBA, before and such system would be put in place. The level of transparency in this league, as well as John's willingness to place decisions in the hands of the owners even when I know he personally may desire a different outcome than our decision, deserves the respect of all of us here.

I think one of my main hang-ups with the issue in the other league is that the decision was announced - the board of directors discussed in privately, reached a conclusion, and started a thread on the forums saying "this is our decision, and it is final." I think that ruffled some feathers of people who would otherwise not mind the decision one bit.

that last part is what I 100% agree with; and I don't even care if that Board of Directors gives a rats booty about my opinion; but at least let the 88 owners voice theirs before saying "this is the way it is"; I'll pay it because I love the league, been in it now 7 seasons; but it was not handled well(I bet future expansions plans are...lets say...delayed) :)