League Administration and Governance

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Evas
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Re: League Administration and Governance

#46 Post by Evas »

Wind Dancers wrote:While I like the 1-10 scale, I can understand wanting to go to the traditional 20-80. Of course, more data points give you a more accurate report on a player but it also gets rid of the fog of war that comes with scouting. 20-80 isn't bad as it still keeps things close to what we are used to I just worry about shaking up the league TOO much.

Also, I would never be okay with a 1-100 scale as it's just completely unrealistic.

I'd like to hear what Morris thinks about all of the things that have been discussed. Hopefully, we can get the moving sooner rather than later.
I just want to emphasize that I am not looking for more accurate information from scouts. Just the ability for scouts to differentiate their opinions about different players more. I'm calling that ability resolution.

Even if we were to use a 1 to 100 scale, scouts would have just as much ability to provide inaccurate information. If anything, they might have the ability to provide info that is more inaccurate because they would have more ability to describe incorrect scouting in detail.

More resolution (as opposed to accuracy) should increase the fog of war, not decrease it.
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Re: League Administration and Governance

#47 Post by Borealis »

I think if we go back to the system we had before, we would have more 'resolution' than we have today. Where we are now, very few players look good coming through the minors.

Kevin's idea may provide us with more info under the current ratings mechanism, but conversely, going back to what we had will accomplish (a part) of this.
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Re: League Administration and Governance

#48 Post by Sandgnats »

Borealis wrote:I think if we go back to the system we had before, we would have more 'resolution' than we have today. Where we are now, very few players look good coming through the minors.

Kevin's idea may provide us with more info under the current ratings mechanism, but conversely, going back to what we had will accomplish (a part) of this.
I thought that the migration to the version caused these issues.
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Re: League Administration and Governance

#49 Post by Wind Dancers »

When we switched over to 18, Morris turned on the "All Ratings Relative to PEBA" setting. It didn't change anything in terms of players abilities, it just changed how they are displayed.

It used to be:
Best Player: 10 Rating
2nd Best Player: 10 rating
3rd Best Player: 10 rating

It now compares every player to the best player(s) in PEBA:
Best Player: 10 Rating
2nd Best Player: 9 rating
3rd Best Player: 8 rating


Obviously, that's just an example as there are usually a few 10's in each category. It's designed to make it easier to see how minor leagues are compared to their league as well as to point out the disparity between PEBA players abilities.
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Re: League Administration and Governance

#50 Post by Sandgnats »

I like it for that reason Dylan. Agreed.
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Re: League Administration and Governance

#51 Post by Borealis »

But it doesn't help with eyeing a player and saying, yeah, he's got growth to go (Current) before being PEBA ready, but I can see he has the skill set (Potential) to be PEBA level. This newer rating method eliminates that... now all minor leaguers look pretty much the same. If there was another scouting mechanism that we could use as an 'eye test' (which the older system provided) - as they have in real life, then maybe the new method has merit, but I have yet to see any value in this newer method. We already had a good level of fog - this just made it unnecessarily foggier...
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Re: League Administration and Governance

#52 Post by Sandgnats »

Borealis wrote:But it doesn't help with eyeing a player and saying, yeah, he's got growth to go (Current) before being PEBA ready, but I can see he has the skill set (Potential) to be PEBA level. This newer rating method eliminates that... now all minor leaguers look pretty much the same. If there was another scouting mechanism that we could use as an 'eye test' (which the older system provided) - as they have in real life, then maybe the new method has merit, but I have yet to see any value in this newer method. We already had a good level of fog - this just made it unnecessarily foggier...
You can see how they are relative to each other by switching to the rating relative to many other levels of play. Also the potential ratings to PEBA still are there too.
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Re: League Administration and Governance

#53 Post by Wind Dancers »

I wouldn't necessarily say that, though I'm indifferent on the subject at this point both ways have their own values.

If a player COULD be PEBA level at some point (potential) then you will still see it. If you have a CF with a 5/5/5/5/5 batting potential, then you know he could become a league average player.

I have a guy in AA right now who couldn't hold a PEBA jockstrap, but when I switch the relative league to AAA, he looks like a quality player, which tells me he is right where he should be. The players who have the potential to make PEBA still look like they could make PEBA. If you look at stars (some do others don't), a 2.5 stars prospect should project to be an average PEBA player. Anything below that would likely only make a roster because of injuries or if the team was very poor.

Adding some Screenshots:

Let's looks at my AAA player Gen Ito.
https://i.imgur.com/Y0phamO.png
Looking at Ito compared to PEBA, he clearly doesn't look too good with only his Gap and Power being league average. He likely won't play in PEBA unless I'm in an emergency.

Now let's look at the same player relative to AAA.
https://i.imgur.com/wKD2ZyA.png
Contact is a bit below average, but everything else looks to be league average, so this is probably where he should be playing. Notice the 3-star ability.

Now let's compare him to AA
https://i.imgur.com/AkSig51.png
Contact is league average, but his power would clearly be a big weapon in AA. In fact, he would probably be one of the better players in AA for me, but I feel his skills are enough to play in AAA. His stars have jumped to 4 in this case.


It works the same way with potential.
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Re: League Administration and Governance

#54 Post by MikeB »

I recently thumbed through a book Smart Baseball by Keith Law, who was asst. to the Bluejays GM. He has a chapter on scouting:

"Scouts measure these tools on the traditional if somewhat quaint 20-to-80 scale (or 2 to 8 ), with 50 representing major league average, 80 representing the best possible, and 20 the worst. This scale has many origin stories, but as far as I can tell they're all apocryphal and ours is not to reason why."

Not sure if that helps but it seems traditional and I'd be in favor of it anyway.

Not a fan of the relative ratings mainly because potential to hit in say A ball is meaningless to me. Potential should be potential regardless. But I am fine with keeping if people prefer. My concern is more the poor stats coming out of high school and college which makes it even harder to distinguish so if that can't be addressed somehow then in favor of offering the wider 20-to-80 scale at least.
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Re: League Administration and Governance

#55 Post by Borealis »

Wind Dancers wrote:I wouldn't necessarily say that, though I'm indifferent on the subject at this point both ways have their own values.

If a player COULD be PEBA level at some point (potential) then you will still see it. If you have a CF with a 5/5/5/5/5 batting potential, then you know he could become a league average player.

I have a guy in AA right now who couldn't hold a PEBA jockstrap, but when I switch the relative league to AAA, he looks like a quality player, which tells me he is right where he should be. The players who have the potential to make PEBA still look like they could make PEBA. If you look at stars (some do others don't), a 2.5 stars prospect should project to be an average PEBA player. Anything below that would likely only make a roster because of injuries or if the team was very poor.

Adding some Screenshots:

Let's looks at my AAA player Gen Ito.
https://i.imgur.com/Y0phamO.png
Looking at Ito compared to PEBA, he clearly doesn't look too good with only his Gap and Power being league average. He likely won't play in PEBA unless I'm in an emergency.

Now let's look at the same player relative to AAA.
https://i.imgur.com/wKD2ZyA.png
Contact is a bit below average, but everything else looks to be league average, so this is probably where he should be playing. Notice the 3-star ability.

Now let's compare him to AA
https://i.imgur.com/AkSig51.png
Contact is league average, but his power would clearly be a big weapon in AA. In fact, he would probably be one of the better players in AA for me, but I feel his skills are enough to play in AAA. His stars have jumped to 4 in this case.


It works the same way with potential.
But what does that all really tell me? That a crappy 31-year old isn't very good, but may light it up at AA against the 23-year olds? Do I really need to toggle through all those screen changes to find that out? And do that for EVERY player I have? 3 or 4 toggles at a shot? Under the old system I'd see that he was, maybe a 2-2-2 player, with maybe a 3-3-3 potential (or, maybe higher, but at 31, he's moved backwards) and I'd know by his age he'd probably beat up AA ball. But what do I do with the 20-year old, who looks like those screen shots? Under the previous system, I might see him as a 2-2-2 player, but he may have a 6-6-6 Potential and I'd at least see that he might make it into the bigs and, with some luck, even improve. But instead, I see him as a 2-2-2 with a 2-2-2 Potential - what do I do with that. Sure, He may look like a 8-8-8 at A Ball with 9-9-9 Potential, but so what? None of that makes sense to me.
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Re: League Administration and Governance

#56 Post by Wind Dancers »

Borealis wrote:
Wind Dancers wrote:I wouldn't necessarily say that, though I'm indifferent on the subject at this point both ways have their own values.

If a player COULD be PEBA level at some point (potential) then you will still see it. If you have a CF with a 5/5/5/5/5 batting potential, then you know he could become a league average player.

I have a guy in AA right now who couldn't hold a PEBA jockstrap, but when I switch the relative league to AAA, he looks like a quality player, which tells me he is right where he should be. The players who have the potential to make PEBA still look like they could make PEBA. If you look at stars (some do others don't), a 2.5 stars prospect should project to be an average PEBA player. Anything below that would likely only make a roster because of injuries or if the team was very poor.

Adding some Screenshots:

Let's looks at my AAA player Gen Ito.
https://i.imgur.com/Y0phamO.png
Looking at Ito compared to PEBA, he clearly doesn't look too good with only his Gap and Power being league average. He likely won't play in PEBA unless I'm in an emergency.

Now let's look at the same player relative to AAA.
https://i.imgur.com/wKD2ZyA.png
Contact is a bit below average, but everything else looks to be league average, so this is probably where he should be playing. Notice the 3-star ability.

Now let's compare him to AA
https://i.imgur.com/AkSig51.png
Contact is league average, but his power would clearly be a big weapon in AA. In fact, he would probably be one of the better players in AA for me, but I feel his skills are enough to play in AAA. His stars have jumped to 4 in this case.


It works the same way with potential.
But what does that all really tell me? That a crappy 31-year old isn't very good, but may light it up at AA against the 23-year olds? Do I really need to toggle through all those screen changes to find that out? And do that for EVERY player I have? 3 or 4 toggles at a shot? Under the old system I'd see that he was, maybe a 2-2-2 player, with maybe a 3-3-3 potential (or, maybe higher, but at 31, he's moved backwards) and I'd know by his age he'd probably beat up AA ball. But what do I do with the 20-year old, who looks like those screen shots? Under the previous system, I might see him as a 2-2-2 player, but he may have a 6-6-6 Potential and I'd at least see that he might make it into the bigs and, with some luck, even improve. But instead, I see him as a 2-2-2 with a 2-2-2 Potential - what do I do with that. Sure, He may look like a 8-8-8 at A Ball with 9-9-9 Potential, but so what? None of that makes sense to me.
If the 6/6/6 player now looks like 2/2/2 then he wasn't ever good enough. What that means, is before we made the change, a 6 rating was not very good and was in fact as bad as a 2 is now. If anything, the old system fooled you into thinking he had a chance when in reality, a 6 was never going to be good enough. For people who may like to get more involved with building minor league teams, it's very valuable. Without listing names, my scout think one of your players could be a 8/3/6 player. Despite the 3 being below average, the 8 & 6 show he has a lot of potential and would be quite far above average if he fills out that way. Before the change, my the scout viewed him as a 10/5/8 which would've been a bit of lie. You can look at the 10 and say wow he's going to be the top 1% when in reality ther were actually players better than him who also had a 10.

Again, it doesn't matter to me either way, I just want to make sure everyone knows how they show be viewing the current ratings.

If you go to roster transactions and click a player, you can change his relative ratings to another league and click back and it will show how all of your players look compared to that level.
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Re: League Administration and Governance

#57 Post by Borealis »

I guess I’ll never understand this... under the old system, if I saw a 20-year old who had a 6-6-6 Potential, I knew he had a chance of being decent - and with luck, might be better... I didn’t need to ‘compare’ him to some mythical being; the ‘eye test’ of his potential informed me. Now I see his potential as 2-2-2 and I’m ‘informed’ that he sucks - just because he may grade out as 8-8-8 at Short A, doesn’t mean he’ll hit at AAA, much less at PEBA. How am I to evaluate his potential growth? Short of next season he’s a 3-3-3? By then he’s cut because he hit .230?

I can walk out onto a diamond and see a young minor leaguer and say, he’s got a high potential (8), but he’s got a ways to go - he’s playing like a 2... that’s what the old system resembled. All the extra clicking and comparing by level just confuses things...

Like I said - I am obviously missing something, and not getting this new way... either way, we play with what we got... hopefully i’ll Get it by 2030...
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Re: League Administration and Governance

#58 Post by Wind Dancers »

I understand the frustration. The current ratings only show players with good potential and then every other prospect looks like crap unless you compare. But the compare tool increases the amount of work to determine that. The eye test is still there, it just looks a lot different than many of the GMs in the league are used to. It's one of the reasons I am skeptical in changing the rating scale and just throwing in more confusion.
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Re: League Administration and Governance

#59 Post by Sandgnats »

Wind Dancers wrote:I understand the frustration. The current ratings only show players with good potential and then every other prospect looks like crap unless you compare. But the compare tool increases the amount of work to determine that. The eye test is still there, it just looks a lot different than many of the GMs in the league are used to. It's one of the reasons I am skeptical in changing the rating scale and just throwing in more confusion.
It took me a while but I am used to it now as well.
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Re: League Administration and Governance

#60 Post by Evas »

Borealis wrote: Do I really need to toggle through all those screen changes to find that out? And do that for EVERY player I have? 3 or 4 toggles at a shot?
It's actually a little better than that. If you switch what the scouting is relative to on one of the player screens, you will maintain that same scouting perspective when you go back the line up screen. That makes it easy to judge the whole roster quickly.
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