The disappearing communal experience

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The disappearing communal experience

#1 Post by John »

I'm not linking to an article for this particular thread. Instead, I'm sharing an anecdote. I went to see the original Paranormal Activity back in 2009. As is usually the case nowadays, the theater wasn't too crowded. The few people in attendance were relatively subdued, only communicating with those who accompanied them to the theater (and to be fair, I was as guilty of this as the rest). Though we watched the film in a large room, it was a small, insular experience. I came away thinking the film was kind of "meh"... not terrible, a few nice jumps, but nothing that left any real impression on me. I certainly wasn't inspired to watch the first sequel.

But last night, I decided to avail myself of a free screening pass and caught an advance screening of Paranormal Activity 3. Based on my so-so experience with the first one and having completely skipped the second, I wasn't anticipating this film in any way, shape, or form. Still, the price was right, and after a couple of weeks of long nights at the computer, I felt like I wanted to get out and do something in a group. And that's the key to this story: "group".

These periodic free screenings that I attend are completely different from the modern movie theater experience, where you may be lucky to find 20 other people sharing the theater with you. Because they are free, they are packed. Because I had to run the sim last night, I arrived just seconds before the film started. There were precisely two free seats, and they weren't next to another, so I was forced to sit apart from the person accompanying me.

This isn't a thread about Paranormal Activity 3. Frankly, the film is pretty much as "meh" as the original. It's worth a view if you're a fan of the "found footage" horror sub-genre, but I wouldn't describe myself as a big connoisseur of these kinds of films, so this wasn't really my bag.

But you know what? Despite the fact that I was late in arriving, despite the fact that I was separated from my friend, and despite the fact that I was watching a so-so movie... I had a great time. Why? Because the audience was totally into it. There were some "gotcha" scenes that got me, sure, but there were numerous other scenes where I wasn't really frightened by what was happening on screen, but I was affected by the response from other audience members. Their enthusiasm was contagious, and they made a mediocre movie more enjoyable to watch.

Leaving the theater, I shared my observation with my friend. He had noted the same phenomenon. We thought back to other communal movie experiences that had elevated the film we were watching. For me, this includes films like Die Hard (I'll never forget the crowd cheering as Hans Gruber falls to his death), The King's Speech (no way did it deserve the Oscar for Best Picture, but on that night, the crowd almost made me believe that it did), The Blair Witch Project (the movie that kicked off the modern "found footage" horror craze), and more.

As we talked, we expanded the scope of our memorable communal experiences. I brought up numerous plays that left a mark on me because of the response of the crowd. I'm not much of a concert-goer, but my friend is, and he shared some of his memorable concert experiences. I recalled great books that I was clued into by discussions with strangers in bookstores and libraries.

Cinemas. Stage theaters. Bookstores. Libraries. Even live concerts. What do all these things have in common? They are all slowly diminishing in popularity. In time, it's reasonable to believe that some or all of these experiences will disappear completely. We're moving from communal consumption of culture to isolated consumption. Why go to a movie theater when you can rent a film on Netflix (or whatever replaced Netflix, since they can't stop shooting themselves in the foot). It's cheaper, it's more convenient, it's even portable if you have the right smartphone or tablet PC. You can be sitting on a bus watching a movie with your earbuds (something I've seen on numerous occasions). You can have your movie anytime you want. Want to go the bathroom? I know I did last night, but I made the titanic effort to hold it so I wouldn't miss anything. Netflix owners just laughed at me. They have a "Pause" button, after all, which comes in super handy when the kids start screaming and you wife is asking you to do something for her. Who has the time to drive to and from the theater for an unbroken viewing of a probably two-hour movie? Who has the energy?

I don't dispute any one of the reasons for the superiority of modern cultural consumption over the more archaic communal experience. We live in a busy world. Technology makes culture accessible where it otherwise might not be. It also lowers the cost of entry in many cases (assuming you can pay the up front fee for the television, sound system, smartphone, tablet PC, etc.). It's more convenient, more practical, more sensible. I completely get it.

...And yet, experiences like last night remind me that I'm going to miss the communal cultural experience when it's gone. Paranormal Activity 3 would have gone right through me if I had seen it alone in my living room. Seen in a packed theater, however, it was a wonderful experience. I watched a staged version of Phantom of the Opera on television. It was not nearly as moving as seeing it in Toronto's Pantages Theater. Someday, I know that I, too, will have an e-reader, and I'm sure I will appreciate the convenience of having a mobile library of books at my disposal, but I sure will be sorry if my local library closes and I no longer can meet with there with other like-minded readers to discuss what's interesting in the world of books.

Does anybody else notice that our lives are becoming increasingly insular? That we spend our work time avoiding undue interaction, and this gets carried over into leisure time as well? Does it feel like a chore to interact with others, something we need to "get up" for? Do you find yourself gravitating towards recreational choices that keep you physically apart from other people? I'm thinking about you gamers out there. Gaming is one area where you could argue that "communal entertainment" is growing, what with most new games shipping with multiplayer support. But is playing a multiplayer game in the isolation of your home really a communal experience, even if you have a mic and headset? I would argue that it's pseudo-communal, at best. I would argue that without the ability to actually see the people you're interacting with, read their expressions and body language, you're missing a key ingredient of the true communal experience. This goes for anything done on line. Is "distance education" the same as being in a classroom with a live professor and students? Is something lost in translation? I rather think so.

This is something that has been on my radar for a while, and I'm attempting to fight back by actively incorporating social experiences into my daily life. For instance, I've all but abandoned the supermarkets, preferring to shop at my local farmers' market. I've gotten to know the farmers on a first-name basis in many cases. Actually, the friend I went to see the movie with last night is a farmer I met at that market! I meet with book lovers at local bookstores and libraries. I find excuses to strike up conversations at the gym instead of working out in quiet isolation like so many others. I don't know... I just feel like, increasingly, I'm missing the pleasure that comes from connecting with others. It seems that as technology provides us with a greater and greater array of admittedly wonderful, highly practical conveniences, we're slowly losing touch with one another, to the point that basic interaction begins to feel unnatural, almost like it's work. The potential offered by modern technology excites me. The slow disappearance of the communal experience saddens me.

But what do you think? As always, I enjoy hearing different points of view, whether they agree or not. And I fully expect some disagreement on this point, so have at it! Is the communal experience really disappearing? If so, is this even a bad thing, or is what's replacing it superior than what came before?
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Re: The disappearing communal experience

#2 Post by Evas »

I can see your point.

Personally, my inclination is not to seek such things out. I don't consider that a strength of mine. I've come the point that I almost always go do things like that when the chance arises even when I am not inclined to do so as I rarely regret doing them after.

That is one of the reasons why I like the LRS so much. I love strategy and management games. But playing with like minded competitors is infinitely more challenging and rewarding. The communal aspect is why the Draft and the WM are the 2 best days of the season. Personally, I'd love to try to do more of them. Maybe a trading deadline version of the WM would be fun too. Anything we can do to get the gang together more is an improvement.

I can also see how a person who is as extroverted as yourself would crave that so much. It would never ever occur to me that I would wind up going to the movies with the guy from the grocery store. I can see how that would be cool, but my brain just doesn't work like that.
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Re: The disappearing communal experience

#3 Post by John »

Evas wrote:I can also see how a person who is as extroverted as yourself would crave that so much. It would never ever occur to me that I would wind up going to the movies with the guy from the grocery store. I can see how that would be cool, but my brain just doesn't work like that.
Not the grocery store but the farmers' market; the place I ditched the grocery store for. ;) He's an interesting guy, too; ex-mechanical engineer who left a lucrative job to pursue a labor of love (and he's been wicked successful, too). But that's neither here nor there.

You touch on one of the reasons I brought this topic up here, Kevin. Our league is very different from pretty much any other OOTP league out there. There's a far greater emphasis placed on community and social networking. Most league are satisfied to hear that a new applicant is going to be the best darn GM the commissioner ever saw. If I accepted every "gonna be the best GM" applicant, the PEBA would have a waiting list a mile long. But the PEBA puts a premium on members who will contribute socially and creatively, both within the context of our baseball league and outside of it over here in the off-topic forums.

So I'm curious how this hand-chosen group views the shift from communal to insular experiences. Maybe the deck is stacked here because anyone taking the time to post in the PEBA's off-topic forum is perhaps someone a bit more gregarious that the average person, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all PEBA members prefer communal experiences and/or actively seek out real life social outlets.

Let's face it: It's a changing world. We don't live in the past, where front porches served as community meeting grounds and newsrooms. We've got the Internet to fill that role now, and there's no denying its benefits. You don't have to wait for your neighbor Marge to hear the latest gossip and pass it on to you, nor do you deal with her complaining about your leaves blowing into her yard as she delivers her news. Instead, you can have instant updates delivered to your portable device o' choice in milliseconds. And this is a good thing! But maybe there is something lost there, too; a little driftwood of regret lost in the otherwise positive and inexorable wave of forward process. At least, that's how I feel. I don't resent forward progress, but I do feel a bit sad that experiences like the one last night are increasingly rare for me.
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#4 Post by Neil Thomas »

I love live music. I have seen 15+ concerts/shows this summer ranging from 40,000 to 150 people. The intense energy when a band/musician and crowd interact is unbelievable and I crave it. The best part of it is that people are so open and you can talk to pretty much anyone you can run into. Being able to connect with others is the best thing about this life. Finding a common interest brings people together.

I do have times where I like to throw my headphones in and do my shopping at the store or walking around town. Then sometimes you can't shut me up when I run into random strangers. I live in a tourist trap and work into the hospitality industry, so I am always working with new people. That's why I chose to live where I do, because in a huge city it is so hard to connect with others outside of your friends. People are always on the go and are thinking of 3 other things when your talking to them.

The excitement of an event is that you never now what will happen. You may meet a new friend, lover or find job opportunities. They can be profound and change your life in many ways. Or just have a good time.

I don't think these communal experiences will disappear. Many communities plan all types of events through the year we just have to find them. This requires people to push themselves to learn/try new things and break out of comfort zones/daily routine. I can go to a show by myself and I look for event that I don't know much about for the hell of it. I find it exciting.

The PEBA is the evolution of the communal experience. This is the only online league I have been in. I didn't care about them at all when I first picked up ootp. Now I am deeply immersed along with 36 others who I will probably never meet face to face. It is apart of my daily life. There are new resources these days with technology with facebook, twitter, and accessibility with smartphones.

This works for me, but to each their own.
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Re: The disappearing communal experience

#5 Post by Daniel Diemer »

There is something about the physicality of the experience of going to the movies that has definitely changed. I remember seeing Jaws in the theater and Star Wars and Indiana Jones, all when they first came out and all with totally packed houses. I remember when there were several films a year that you had to get there early or face being separated as John and his co-watcher were. I remember long lines to get in...and I also remember the sense of crowd reaction to the story--cheering or gasping or whatever. It definitely adds to the story itself.

But everything is different now. I'm not saying it's bad, but it is different. And there were things lost.

On the other hand, part of those things lost were the fear that you would be seated behind the woman with the big hair or beside a family of eight who had no manners, or . . .
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Re: The disappearing communal experience

#6 Post by Maulers »

This, conceptualized as a loss of civic engagement, has been the topic of a great deal of scholarship in political science over the last 20 years or so. The standard treatment is Robert Putnam's Bowling Alone. A briefer version of his argument - which links the historical trend of declining civic engagement to the advent of television - can be found here.
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Re: The disappearing communal experience

#7 Post by klewis »

I'm not sure how I would describe the "loss of communal experience". It's sorta like the radio. Before television, families used to huddle over the radio in the evening. Radio was a great medium for the imagination. With television and picture, we lost a little bit of that imagination. But I can't say we are better or worse for it.

Similarly, people might be going to less live viewings (movies, concerts, etc.) but they have replaced that with online interaction and social network interaction. Nowadays, it is so easy to keep in touch with friends and family with a simple mouse click. I can feel some what connected to my friends and family over in Europe just by following them on facebook. I can send them an email if need be.

Or take the PEBA for instance. Technology and internet has led to me meeting people from different backgrounds that I probably would have never met. I can certainly tell you that it was the PEBA where I learned so much about apples.

Personally, I just view it as evolution and I just roll with the punches :P
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#8 Post by Coqui »

I suspect that we will see a market correction that 'saves' communal experiences like going to the movie theatre. Things like Netflix and the ever-burgeoning portability of entertainment will eventually bring prices for communal experiences down to where people will go back to the movies and live concerts (and honestly the live concert scene isn't hurting as badly as movies and never really has, and with some limited exceptions, the same is true for sports).

Two reasons this will happen:

- The revenue streams for things like MLB Advanced Media, and Netflix, and other non-live entertainment "venues" is growing, and the team owners/players/recording artists will benefit from those new and ever-increasing revenue streams, which will enable them to lower (or at least keep low relative to inflation) the pricing for live attendance over time.

- Simple supply and demand. As attendance at movie theatres/sporting events/live concerts dips, a high demand will dictate that prices go down. This is one of the reasons why you see sports teams engaging in differential pricing, just like the airlines have done for several decades.
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#9 Post by Lions »

This is gonna be long and rambling... so it fits right in with John's fist post. ;)
PEBA Commissioner wrote:I watched a staged version of Phantom of the Opera on television. It was not nearly as moving as seeing it in Toronto's Pantages Theater.
Theater isn't all that different from sports. The experience of watching it live is totally different than the experience of watching it at home, but only part of that is the interaction with other people. The primary aspect, IMO, is the ability to take in parts of the stage/field that the cameras aren't showing you. When we watch things live, our eyes flit here and there. We focus on the sounds of the things we're actually looking at. Movies are inherently different in that the full movie experience, everything you're supposed to look at, is on the screen. That said, I don't think anyone would disagree that if you were physically present in the situation the characters are in, your experience would be quite different. Of course, we often wouldn't want to be physically present in those situations as they can be quite dangerous. Surround sound and large screens get us closer to feeling like we are, though. To me, the biggest obstacle to going to see a movie in the theater aside from having a 2 year old is the cost. The theater's prices are too high for me to want to see a film on the big screen when I can get a similar experience at home for $1 from redbox. That said, I don't much care to watch movies once the screen gets smaller than a certain size. I lose the engagement.

The interaction between a performer and the audience doesn't just affect the audience, but the performer, too, elevating the experience for both parties. When I was in college, I was part of an acapella group (I'm a real life Andy Bernard - yes, I went to Cornell). I sang in front of crowds less than 30 and in front of crowds over 1,000 strong. The crowd reaction definitely raises your performance. We also recorded a CD and it's very hard to capture some of the added inflections and nuances that you do in response to a crowd when you're in an isolated recording studio.

In terms of listening to music, how often, outside of a concert, do we really just sit and listen. It's almost always background to something else we're doing. Our primary activity is rarely to listen. We're driving our car, or shopping, or exercising, or updating our PEBA lineups. We're not focused on the music. I don't think too many people would disagree with me that the highest quality music is typically not the most popular. People like catchy tunes because they enhance the enjoyment of whatever primary activity it is we're doing. Now that's not always the case, but it often is.

John, I'm surprised you find the grocery store to be a non-communal environment. I agree it's not quite as interactive as a farmer's market. Sellers are in competition with one another, and the ones you feel good about will be the ones you get along with well. They interact with you to sell you things. Whether or not they know that's part of the reason - often they're just friendly people - it's a key ingredient in their success. The grocery store is a captive audience. The produce employees don't worry that you're going to spend all your money in the cereal aisle. However, I still find the interaction with other people to be fascinating. You run into all sorts of random people, and maybe I just have a friendly face or buy the same products they buy, but I often find myself pulling an item off a shelf for some old lady in a motorized wheel chair. It's just a different type of communal experience. My guess is that the communal experience you feel at the farmers market is secondary benefit of the real reasons you go there in the first place, for fresher produce and to support local business.
PEBA Commissioner wrote:So I'm curious how this hand-chosen group views the shift from communal to insular experiences. Maybe the deck is stacked here because anyone taking the time to post in the PEBA's off-topic forum is perhaps someone a bit more gregarious that the average person, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all PEBA members prefer communal experiences and/or actively seek out real life social outlets.
I have to say that I'm not really sure where I fall on this. I used to be far more isolated in my activities than I am today. I used to watch a lot of movies and play a lot of online games, but I really haven't done much of that lately. That has all gradually changed as I've gotten older and since I've been married, but I still often have to actively seek out social interaction. I think I'm sort of an extroverted introvert. I'm not particularly good at small talk, and generally don't like larger groups, but I can be fairly gregarious in a smaller group setting or one-on-one.

I think that ultimately, we'll start seeing a push back for more social interaction. A few years ago, prior to the recession, I attended a conference where one of the speakers was arguing that the next big wave of business ideas was going to fall into the realm of experience oriented businesses. By that he meant things like specialized birthday parties for kids and he didn't even rule out the idea of a company like CRS, although probably a bit tamer than that. The fact is that humans need and crave interaction with other humans. As we start to lose that, we devolve into deviant and anti social behavior. People who recognize this, will seek out the types of interactions that they're comfortable with. I don't think this means larger communal experiences like we've been used to, but more special interest focused groups will spring up where people find a niche they enjoy. Perhaps that's why we're losing the communal experiences, too. We've got so many ways of getting information and of finding entertainment and meeting up with people who have similar likes as we do that we no longer have as many large social phenomenons as we used to. We have a lot more smaller social phenomenons.
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#10 Post by Cole »

A really interesting topic John. I think the communal experience is definately dewindling or at least being redefined into a hybrid of communal/insular and I think PEBA fits into that hybrid definition well and maybe even sets the definition.

I think the overwhelmingly main reason for the dwindling experience is cost. For example, during the Atlanta/St. Louis series during the regular season when Atlanta was collapsing and the Cards were surging the Cardinals came back on the Braves in the bottom of the 9th to take it to extra's and eventually win the game. While the comeback was great and it was one of the best ballgames I have attended in person, the interaction with others was equally as great. I was high-fiving people I had never met or talked too, we were razzing Braves fans in the commonly good natured St. Louis way, we were razzing St. Louis fans who were leaving the game at the end of the 8th. It was a great communal experience that cost me around $50-$60. The cost did not weigh on my mind at all and I have and would do this at a minimum monthly if I wanted.

Now enter the playoffs, this time my wife and I attend the NLCS v. the Brewers and it cost us in total $300. Same thing, we bonded with people we had never met, rooted out a guy who was a closet Brewers fan but was wearing St. Louis gear to keep from getting harassed and had a great experience. The cost didn't weigh on my mind that much, but it was there and the question started to linger. Was this experience worth $300 when I could view it at home in comofort at the cost of my monthly U-Verse subscription.

Present day, I have the opportunity to purchase World Series tickets, the cost is at least $700. I really want to go, I really want to experience being at the ballpark during the World Series. However, I have now reached my tipping point of valuing my peace of mind of financial restraint and personal comfort v. wanting to have that communal experience.

My point in all of this is that I believe that capitalism and market value out price the communal experience v. the consumer and publics other opportunities to have a similar albeit more insular experience. Additionally, I think this is the natural direction of capitalism when applied to the communal experience: to maximize the profit of the communal experience.
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Re: The disappearing communal experience

#11 Post by Daniel Diemer »

The cost question of cost is a big deal. When I was a teen me and 30,000 of my closest friedns could go see a concert for $10-$12 bucks. That represented maybe two hours of work. Now to go see a concert you're talking $40 for deep cheap seats and more like $60-$100. That's ~10-15 hours of work for a kid...and then they basically just go to a place and watch a big TV screen. *

But I don't think that's the biggest issue for things like movies. Movies are still moderately cheap, especialy if you don't cave and pay your next month's rent for popcorn and candy. The movie business itself has changed so much from the days when a film would come out, then stay in the big 4-screen theatre for 8 weeks before being replaced with another. Seriously, lines happened every single film. They were almost min-religious events. They were big deals to go to.

Now films come and go from theaters in days sometimes. It's similar to books and bookstores. If a book dosen't sell in a few weeks, it can be gone almost before you ever knew it existed.

Ans I'm convinced that the user/comunal experience is part of the reason for this change in movies. I wasn't joking about the downside to the big crowds. People are difficult to be around at movies for me. I don't like lots of talking or whispering. I don't like kids whining or people getting up to go to the restroom or to get a popcorn refill or whatever. I want to experience the film as it's made (except, of course, for Rocky Horror Picture Show, in which the audience is the reason to go). As a rule the audience gets in the way.

* I know I'm an old fuddy-duddy when it comes to these things, but I fully admit that I don't get the idea of the huge real-time diamond vision showing at concerts. I know it blows up the singer's face or whatever, and I can see it "better" but still ... I pay my $100, I want to just watch the singer do his or her thing...I don't care it he/she is the size of an ant or not. I saw the Who from pretty much behind the stage but in the upper deck. Still cool. I saw the Stones from near the top of the arena. Awesome. I saw ZZ Top and Steppenwolf from the standing pit, maybe row three. Totally cool. I could go on. But please, no danged TV sets for me.
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Re: The disappearing communal experience

#12 Post by Cole »

I think one thing that continual insulation does overall is make us a less-humane species. Its nothing for someone to post garbage on a comments section after a news story on CNN or even for our "friends" on facebook to post incredulous status updates or even to boast about their perfect life. There is no accountability because they are insulated by the distance and the now common way of communicating which is electrronically.

We also see this with road-rage. If I am in my car, which is an extension of my personal space, and you make eye contact with me or drive in a way that I disagree with or prevent me from getting where I am going in the fastest time possible, then I can without reprucssions act out towards you in way that I would never behave had we just been walking down the street and we passed each other or in other words if I wasn't insulated by my car and ability to drive away.
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Re: The disappearing communal experience

#13 Post by John »

I am just floored by the quality of the insights posted here. What a great discussion. Let me touch briefly on a few of the points being made...
Maulers wrote:This, conceptualized as a loss of civic engagement, has been the topic of a great deal of scholarship in political science over the last 20 years or so. The standard treatment is Robert Putnam's Bowling Alone. A briefer version of his argument - which links the historical trend of declining civic engagement to the advent of television - can be found here.
Thank you for those links, Jeff. I just finished reading the brief version, and it's very interesting. The association I made between the rise of technology and a move away from communal activity is one of four possible reasons for the phenomenon provided by Putnam. The others are the movement of women into the labor force, mobility (i.e. we're all on the move too much to socialize), and demographic transformations. Putnam also brings up the declining trust Americans have for their government and for one another. He cites one survey, for instance, where only 37% of Americans polled in 1993 felt that most people can be trusted. When that same poll was conducted back in 1960, 58% of Americans felt that most people can be trusted. Oh, and I found it interesting (and disturbing) that 80 million Americans bowled in 1993, while only 60 million voted in the 1994 congressional elections. :shock:
Featherheads wrote:Or take the PEBA for instance. Technology and internet has led to me meeting people from different backgrounds that I probably would have never met. I can certainly tell you that it was the PEBA where I learned so much about apples.
I can pass on knowing that I've brought enlightenment to the world. 8)
Longshoremen wrote:I suspect that we will see a market correction that 'saves' communal experiences like going to the movie theatre. Things like Netflix and the ever-burgeoning portability of entertainment will eventually bring prices for communal experiences down to where people will go back to the movies and live concerts (and honestly the live concert scene isn't hurting as badly as movies and never really has, and with some limited exceptions, the same is true for sports).
That's an interesting theory, James, and it provides me with some hope. You may be right; perhaps a "social market correction" is on our horizon. Without delving into debating the merits of these political movements, maybe we're seeing the first wave of such a correction in the form of Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street protests. These are movements that formed around very visible, social gatherings. The Tea Party movement has seniority over the Occupy Wall Street Movement, and we've seen Tea Party members gather together to discuss their various viewpoints. Perhaps the same result will come out of the Occupy Wall Street Movement. It's certainly a change from the more disengaged political setup we've seen in recent times, where many of us pay little attention to political goings-on that used to be big social events, and those of us with political views are reticent to discuss them for fear of angry response (I cop to being guilty of that here).
Nutmeggers wrote:This is gonna be long and rambling... so it fits right in with John's fist post. ;)
"Rambling" is what I do best. Lord, I was born a ramblin' man. :grin:
Nutmeggers wrote:John, I'm surprised you find the grocery store to be a non-communal environment. I agree it's not quite as interactive as a farmer's market. Sellers are in competition with one another, and the ones you feel good about will be the ones you get along with well. They interact with you to sell you things. Whether or not they know that's part of the reason - often they're just friendly people - it's a key ingredient in their success. The grocery store is a captive audience. The produce employees don't worry that you're going to spend all your money in the cereal aisle. However, I still find the interaction with other people to be fascinating. You run into all sorts of random people, and maybe I just have a friendly face or buy the same products they buy, but I often find myself pulling an item off a shelf for some old lady in a motorized wheel chair. It's just a different type of communal experience. My guess is that the communal experience you feel at the farmers market is secondary benefit of the real reasons you go there in the first place, for fresher produce and to support local business.
Like you, I'll help that lady in the motorized wheel chair get a can off the top shelf at the supermarket. But I find that this rarely results in a conversation; usually, I'm lucky if I get more than a terse, "Thank you." My experience is that people at the supermarket are bouncing around in bubbles. They're there to get what they want fast and get out pronto. They don't want to talk, and they resent you for standing in front of the yogurt they're after. The clerks have little connection to the products being sold because they have no association with those products... "Hey man, I just work here." This is totally different than the farmers' market, where fellow patrons stop to talk to one another and farmers, while surely interested in sales, feel pride in products they are wholly responsible for. For me, I guess it's the difference between just being around people and actually interacting with people in a meaningful way. There are more people at the supermarket, yet I feel more distant from them than those at the farmers' market.

@ Brinnon and Ron: You bring up great points about cost of entry being a barrier. That's undeniably true. Brinnon's example of the cost for playoff tickets is eye-opening. How wonderful would it be to soak in the atmosphere of playoff baseball, slapping hands with strangers as exciting events unfold? But how many of us have the disposable $1,000+ it would take to bring our families to these events? They've been priced out of the "99% market". In cases like this, it may not be that we don't want to be social; it may be more of a case of being prevented from being social.
Badgers wrote:I think one thing that continual insulation does overall is make us a less-humane species. Its nothing for someone to post garbage on a comments section after a news story on CNN or even for our "friends" on facebook to post incredulous status updates or even to boast about their perfect life. There is no accountability because they are insulated by the distance and the now common way of communicating which is electrronically.
I notice the banality of news comments sections all the time. You'll finish reading an insightful editorial that obviously took a great deal of thought and effort from the author, and the comments are filled with trite thoughts, meaningless jokes, insults, derogatory comments, demonization of differing viewpoints, etc. You're surely right that the layer of anonymity provided by the Internet gives rise to this brand of thoughtlessness. Would people be so cavalier with such foolish words if they had to say them faced with a live audience? Probably not. More's the pity, then, that they don't have a live audience, because they're add nothing to the constructive discourse.
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Re: The disappearing communal experience

#14 Post by Coqui »

Badgers wrote:Present day, I have the opportunity to purchase World Series tickets, the cost is at least $700. I really want to go, I really want to experience being at the ballpark during the World Series. However, I have now reached my tipping point of valuing my peace of mind of financial restraint and personal comfort v. wanting to have that communal experience.
Dude, use StubHub. I didn't go to either of the first two games, although my wife, angel that she is, gave me a budget to do so if I had so chosen. I could have gotten into Game 1 in a seat (i.e. not SRO) for $160 per ticket, and down in the field boxes for $200 per ticket. Now granted, that's still pricy, but even with fees and parking and concessions and what not, you could have seen Game 1 for far south of $700.

Now granted, I didn't check before last night's Game 2, and Game 6 and 7 tickets, if those games happen should logically be more expensive, but your best deals will be around an hour and a half before game time.
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Re: The disappearing communal experience

#15 Post by Lions »

PEBA Commissioner wrote:Like you, I'll help that lady in the motorized wheel chair get a can off the top shelf at the supermarket. But I find that this rarely results in a conversation; usually, I'm lucky if I get more than a terse, "Thank you." My experience is that people at the supermarket are bouncing around in bubbles. They're there to get what they want fast and get out pronto. They don't want to talk, and they resent you for standing in front of the yogurt they're after. The clerks have little connection to the products being sold because they have no association with those products... "Hey man, I just work here." This is totally different than the farmers' market, where fellow patrons stop to talk to one another and farmers, while surely interested in sales, feel pride in products they are wholly responsible for. For me, I guess it's the difference between just being around people and actually interacting with people in a meaningful way. There are more people at the supermarket, yet I feel more distant from them than those at the farmers' market.
See, now I think you're trying to define a certain type of communal experience. A communal experience doesn't necessarily have to be one where you interact with the other folks through direct conversation. It can merely be a situation in which a bunch of people are all experiencing the same thing. I've gone to quite a number of concerts, ranging from rock to blue grass to classic orchestra, and rarely do I strike up conversation with anyone other than the folks I came with and venue staff. Yet we're still having the communal experience of taking in music and reacting to the performers, often in very similar ways. From a level of direct interaction with other people, that's not all that different from the grocery store. The grocery store example is also only mildly different in essence from one of the most communal activities most people endure during the year: Black Friday shopping.

It's also worth pointing out that the level of interaction you have with the workers in a grocery store is largely dependant on two factors: how much effort you put in, and where you live. I've spent at least 5 years living in the northeast, midwest, and northwest each, and the store workers in the northeast are far and away the least interested in chatting with their customers. Two nights ago I went to the local supermarket here in Portland to pick up a slice of cake for my pregnant wife, and the guy at that counter and I had a very entertaining conversation about the different cakes he had and which ones were the best. So in short, I think you should just up and move to Portland.


The sad thing about sporting tickets being so expensive is that the market suggests that people are willing to pay these prices, which makes it hard for less well off fans to enjoy the games in person. I think baseball has a bigger problem with this than basketball or football, as those sports translate the experience to television better than baseball does.


As for road rage, I often think a sketch comedy group should do a bit about sidewalk rage just to point out how ridiculous road rage looks when you're not confined to your car.
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