Unemployment

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Bill
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Unemployment

#1 Post by Bill »

According my sources (which is to say, usually Wikipedia), unemployment in Ohio is somewhere between 9 and 11 percent. Assuming that all of us are from Ohio (we're not), looking for work (we aren't), or that things are about the same everywhere else (again, probably not), there should be somewhere between two and four members of our esteemed league suffering from the scourge of joblessness. While I'm not excited about it, I am willing to admit that I am one of these. I was laid-off from the financial services firm where I worked back at the beginning of the year and, as you might imagine, the demand for junior-grade financial servants is not exactly at a peak. But enough about me...

There's no need to identify the other 1-3 people - assuming they exist - and I wouldn't deign to put pressure on anyone to "out" himself if he didn't feel comfortable doing it. On the other hand, if you want to speak up, that's fine too. The point is, hang in there gang! It will probably get better, it might even get worse, and there's almost literally nothing I can do to help, but you're not alone. Keep sending out resumes, following up applications, and grinning through interviews to make that great first impression. Statistically, we're all one day closer to landing on that first step to employment. Or something.
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Re: Unemployment

#2 Post by John »

Actually, posting here on this topic isn't a bad idea. It's a big league and you never know who is reading. While the chances may be slim, you just might make a connection with someone who can point you in the right direction.
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Iyou Seigyoki
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Re: Unemployment

#3 Post by Iyou Seigyoki »

I'm number two. I've been out of work since I was laid off of my housing industry job back in June of 2008. Chicago area unemployment was reported to have reached over 9% last March.

As an accounting and clerical person, I've always been able to stay busy with temp jobs. This time around, despite being signed up with fifteen agencies, I'm lucky to get maybe a weeks worth of work at a time on a sporadic basis. Also, these days one must remember that the unemployment numbers count only those that are actively collecting unemployment so the "real" number is much higher...perhaps double...when you factor in people whose unemployment has run out.

I hear the same thing everywhere I go. Nobody is hiring. Things are slow. I'm trying to increase my networking skills because I think that right about now, one needs to "know" somebody in order to find work.

In the meantime, with my unemployment running out in September, I'm on the verge of going for the jobs where one says the dreaded phrase, "Would you like fries with that?". I've been told that even those jobs are scarce these days...
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Re: Unemployment

#4 Post by NormV »

My wife and I are manufacturer's agents. So far in 2009, we have had one small order because factories are either using up existing inventories or are not needing new product.

Requests for quotations are way down as well so it looks like things are going to be slow for us for awhile yet.

Since we work from home we are lucky that our overhead is very low.

But in Canada, since we are self employed, we are not eligible for unemployment or any other aid. So to tide us over we are also doing work through an agency which covers our day to day needs.

We consider ourselves lucky in the sense that our children are grown up and have left home. So we only have ourselves to worry about. (We do worry about our kids in general though, like all parents.)
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Re: Unemployment

#5 Post by Matt »

I lost one job in this economic climate, back in February, but saw the handwriting on the wall and lined up a new job just about the same time the ax came down. The new job has actually been a blessing in many ways.

I hear unemployment figures all the time. The Reno area is running 12% right now, Sacramento about the same. Some of the agricultural areas of California's central valleys are running as high as 19%.

Working in the trucking industry, we usually see economic cycles a little ahead of the curve that the ordinary citizen would see them. Freight will slow down before the economy falters, and pick back up before anyone really begins to the feel recovery. That said, it's still not looking good. If we are heading for a recovery, it will be weak, because freight is still stagnant.
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Re: Unemployment

#6 Post by Evas »

Calzones wrote:I lost one job in this economic climate, back in February, but saw the handwriting on the wall and lined up a new job just about the same time the ax came down....
Working in the trucking industry, we usually see economic cycles a little ahead of the curve that the ordinary citizen would see them. Freight will slow down before the economy falters, and pick back up before anyone really begins to the feel recovery. That said, it's still not looking good. If we are heading for a recovery, it will be weak, because freight is still stagnant.
I went through something similar fairly recently, switching jobs almost 2 years ago. I was at a manufacturer that made manufacturing equipment for the fenestration (window & door) industry, so we saw the edge of the housing collapse way back in 2006-2007. We had no idea what our sales collapse actually meant in relation to the rest of the economy though.

Like Matt, I saw the writing on the wall and switched jobs right as the axe fell. I went to a work for a well known consumer appliance manufacturer. We saw things collapse here in Q4 2008 and had a couple of layoffs that I was lucky enough to escape. Things seem to have bottomed out here and are not quite as bleak looking as they were in Q1 2009, but they are well below where they had been in the past. I think the economy has bottomed for the moment, but we are not going back to our recent highs for a long while. We remain short staffed here despite being ahead of plan budget wise so far in 2009. I don't see us hiring much for at least the remainder of 2009. The jobs are not going to come back quickly.
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Re: Unemployment

#7 Post by Aaron Tassano »

It's tough to read these stories. My uncle, who has managed heavy equipment company in Las Vegas for about 25 years, was just let go last week. He moved to Las Vegas from California in the 80s, and Vegas was a boom town in terms of construction until recently. Now it's undergoing a dramatic reverse effect.

Let me throw out the idea of teaching English abroad to folks. It might sound kind of crazy, but if you have a college degree of any kind -- and possibly just a high school diploma in some places -- you can teach your native language abroad. Although it helps in landing better jobs, you don't need teaching experience. Most jobs in South Korea pay between 25K and 35K per year, and you can make up to $30-$40 per hour tutoring on the side. Not huge money, but you'll pay about 4% for tax/insurance, and housing is almost always provided, so you can save money very easily. Most teachers here are in their 20s and 30s, but there are plenty who are in their 40s, 50s and 60s. Couples with grown children come here, people who are divorced and looking for a new start. Most jobs also provide a month or two in vacation as well if you want to travel or go home and visit the kids.

China is also a huge and growing market for English teaching. The pay is lower, and so are their standards. You can literally teach English anywhere in the world. The best paying jobs are actually in the Middle East, where you can make up to 50K in places like Saudi and Yemen. Of course, you're living in a compound...but money is money. Generally, the more "desirable" locales pay less -- so jobs in, say Finland and France, probably pay fairly low.

Here's a good Web site with job listings etc if you're interested: http://www.eslcafe.com/
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Re: Unemployment

#8 Post by Evas »

Here is an interesting article I read recently that talks about the Minimum Wage Hike and how it will affect unemployment. It does a pretty good job of explaining some of the unintended consequences without being too political. It is worth a read if you are interested in macroeconomics.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articl ... 97578.html

To me this seems like a classic case of people wanting to do something to help, but not taking in to account what the effects of their actions will actually be. Too often people feel that if they act with good intentions, it makes anything they do OK. It doesn't. Results matter, not intent.
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Re: Unemployment

#9 Post by Ghosts »

Evas wrote:Here is an interesting article I read recently that talks about the Minimum Wage Hike and how it will affect unemployment. It does a pretty good job of explaining some of the unintended consequences without being too political. It is worth a read if you are interested in macroeconomics.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articl ... 97578.html

To me this seems like a classic case of people wanting to do something to help, but not taking in to account what the effects of their actions will actually be. Too often people feel that if they act with good intentions, it makes anything they do OK. It doesn't. Results matter, not intent.
This is an interesting point, and article, but after 30 minutes on the google, I'm not convinced at all. The consensus I'm seeing -- and I tried my damndest to look only at unbiased sources (if that's possible) is that it's much closer to being a wash than anything else or perhaps -- and I'm really beginning to believe this -- it's just very difficult to know what would have happened in any given location had the minimum wage *not* be raised (or any number of economic events or demographic changes not occurred). For example, Washington was previously cited as a "success story" for having a high minimum wage and lower unemployment and now it's being cited as a "disaster story" because it has a high unemployment. It's hard to take either snapshot as proof of much. Certainly in the long run.

However, from a purely policy standpoint, if what you're saying is true, then there should be no minimum wage at all. And that's where we get into trouble because without a minimum wage we're going to relegate an entire class of people into a war with each other for who will work for the lowest. And there's always somebody who will take lower. And it's far from clear that this would translate into larger economic gain and efficiencies, because -- think 1920s -- the conglomerates just may take healthy profits.

It's the same thing with 8 hour days, 40 hour weeks, child labor, safety rules, union organizing and the weekend. Surely, one can argue that doing away with all of them would probably result in lower production costs for a company making widgets -- but there's a certain floor under which we as a society have decided we should not go. And while all of them may result in higher unemployment (and this is not a given - I suppose it depends on if you're a Keynesian and I reckon you aren't!), they likely protect an entire class of unskilled and semi-skilled workers from living a pretty miserable life.

So I guess what I'm saying is there's a certain floor -- minimum wage being one of the planks -- that may (may!) decrease overall economic efficiency, but even if that's true they result in a whole class of workers, and their families, being better off.

And when you consider that the minimum wage is nowhere close to it's maximum (in real dollar value) -- and until 2006 or so was at a rate commensurate with the late 1940s -- it's a tradeoff I'm more than happy to make. Unless I get more evidence from a non-(admittedly soft) right leaning source like a RCP column.

http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/anth484/minwage.html
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Re: Unemployment

#10 Post by Matt »

I can't get into the minimum wage debate with going off on what a complete pile of dung Milton Friedman was. It is his vile ideas more than any other that have corrupted economic debate in this country.

Without imposing any of my own ideas here, I just want to recommend again a great book that details the history and effects of Friedman style economics around the world. I can't recommend this book enough, because when it comes to the type of economic policies being advocated by Friedman disciples, it really could be a case of be careful what you wish for.

http://www.amazon.com/Shock-Doctrine-Ri ... 053&sr=8-1
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Re: Unemployment

#11 Post by Evas »

Jon, thanks for the thoughtful response. The graphs are very good information. And No I am not a Keynesian. I probably agree with the Austrian School view of things more than any other. But I am not a Laissez Faire absolutist and I do not want to get rid of all rules, regulations and social safety nets. Though I would question how much a program actually protects workers at the bottom if it causes a lot more unemployment. After all, who is actually on the bottom of the economic ladder: a worker making Minimum Wage or an unemployed worker?

My point was not about increasing economic efficiency. I was not concerned about corporate profits being hurt. It was that raising the Minimum Wage will hurt, not help, those at the bottom of the ladder especially considering the current economic situation. Regardless of where you think the Minimum Wage should be long term, to make it more expensive for employers to keep the least skilled people is plainly a bad idea in a deflationary period when wages are falling overall and unemployment is on its way to 10, 11% or even 13%.

For example, workers under 25 are half of the people who are paid the minimum wage, despite being only about 20% of the hourly paid work force. The unemployment rate among teens in particular is skyrocketing. It is already almost 40% among African American teens. These are some of the people who have been and will be hit hardest.

Personally, I'd delay the increase until about 2011 then set it to real value of about $7 and then index it to inflation. That would remove it as political football, which would be good.
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Re: Unemployment

#12 Post by Matt »

I think the fact that there even has to be discussion of minimum wages in this country simply points out the massive flaw in capitalism. It is a system designed to funnel money up to the top 1% while preying on the other 99%. Capitalism is a predatory Ponzi scheme, nothing more.

The fact is even with a raise in the minimum wage, it is a wage that is equal to less than half of the poverty level. It's not poverty level. It's LESS THAN HALF the poverty level. Do the math. A person working two full time minimum wage jobs would still be below the poverty level. That's not just sick, it's retarded. But that's our capitalist empire.

Here is where the American Dream (read = illusion) meets the economic reality of capitalism. Your told all your you life about the American Dream. Work hard, study, and you'll be rewarded. Your indoctrinated into the cult of capitalism from the time your in the crib. So you work hard. You study. You put yourself through college. On your own dime. At the time, manufacturing jobs are dissappearing and everyone (politicians, corporations, the nightly news, etc) says to go into technology, computers, get trained for the new high skill jobs. You willingly comply.

You get a job in the technology field, working in corporate america. Starting at the bottom, and working your way up. You have your college degree, and you continue your training and increase your skills, getting every possible career certification from the likes of Microsoft, and Cisco.

Then, after more than a dozen years in the field, slowly working your way up, and doing your time, you watch as the rug gets pulled out from under you. When corporate america decides that IT workers are too expensive. So they begin bringing in workers from Bangladesh and India who will work cheaper. On visas. Because they claim they can't find qualified workers. Yet in order to bring in those scabs from third world countries, they "downsize", "make redundant", or whatever other catch phrase they want to use for what should aptly be called "screwing the american worker".

This is my personal story. I worked hard to get where I was at, and as I was reaching for the next level it was taken away be greedy corporate bastards. This is my story as well as many other IT workers who have lived it. Who strived for the American Dream only to get pissed on. In my particular case, my employer let go of hundreds of workers who were overqualified for jobs they were in, all in order to bring in third world workers who would work for less than half the salary that a highly trained american worker would. Companies go crying they can't find skilled workers, which is complete crap. What they really mean is that can't find skilled workers who are willing to work for peanuts, so they have to the visa's to bring in people who will work for peanuts.

I could have stayed where I was at. But what was the point in staying when all the better paying jobs that I had been training for and working for were now being given to foreigners? When all my avenues for advancement had been blocked. For what? So that corporate america could drive down the wages of highly skilled workers. It was as simple as that.

I wasn't the only one who became disenchanted where I worked. Although the fact that our advancement had now become impossible was only a small part of the problem. Downsizing our staff to the point where no one could take their vacation time was another issue. There were other issues as well.

The sad thing was, this wasn't one company. Everyone in the industry was feeling the same pressures, the same issues. High paying jobs being outsourced, people being layed off. Etc.

I had made up my mind to get out. I had seen the ugly side of corporate america, and the truth about the nature of capitalism. I already had a plan of action in mind. But I was not quite out the door, when one day a meeting was called to address our departments "issues". Needless to say, our attitudes sucked, our morale was low, and we were (at least I was) very vocal about the issues. So the local property head of HR, as well as a corporate HR representive, "invite" us to a meeting. We get there only to find out we get to discuss nothing. They berate us like school children for our "poor attitudes" and not accepting change. Then the corporate HR rep passes out a copy of the book "Who moved my Cheese?" (capitalist propoganda if you haven't had the misfortune of reading it). And he goes into the speech about embracing change, yadda, yadda, yadda. After about 10 minutes of this BS, I stood up, walked to the front of the room, handed him the book, and suggested an orafice and an extremely uncomfortable angle of entry. I then walked back to my office, typed up a resignation that included several more suggestions for management, most of them technically anotomically impossible, and left corporate america forever that day. I will NEVER, no matter what line of work I choose to be in, work for a publicly traded company.

This is the American "Dream" that has become in fact a complete nightmare for millions of Americans in many lines of work. This is "globalization". "Free Trade". "Competition". My word for it is "horseshit".

The real issue here is far from political. Both parties are equally complicit in making terrible choices when it comes to things like free trade agreements and immigration policy. The simple fact is that the elected puppets do nothing more than the bidding of the 1% at the top that is the American aristocracy. And there in lies the problem for the shrinking middle class, which has seen real wages fall steadily the last 30 years.

People believe so strongly in the cult of capitalism that I know any criticism of it wins few friends. People also believe strongly in the illusion of democracy. Most people wrongly believe we live in a society that is democratic and capitalist, and that you have to have one to have the other. The sad truth is that our society is far from democratic, and if you care to peak behind the curtain what you will truly find is an oligarchy.

I personally have little hope that things will ever get better for the typical american worker. I expect things to get far worse, until the middle class is completely extinguished. The American Dream belongs to the 1%. The rest of us get to eat cake.
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Re: Unemployment

#13 Post by Bill »

Matt,

I feel for you and the pain that you've gone through, but I have to take issue with your definition of poverty. Poverty in America still gives one a roof over his head and food to eat. In a large number of other countries, that is luxury. Two minimum wage jobs gives you things Kenyans will only ever dream about.

I could go on and on, but I don't feel like that would be appropriate for this forum. I will just close in saying that I respect you - and the rest of my fellow PEBA owners - but we see far from eye-to-eye on this. Out of respect to John and everyone else, I will just close in suggesting that, if you wish to discuss this further, feel free to email me at j.dobney@hotmail.com . Again, I hope nothing I've said here is interpreted as disrespectful or dismissive. Regards.
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Re: Unemployment

#14 Post by John »

Time to take this discussion to our new Facebook Political Corner. See this evening's mailing for details. You'll find a link to the Political Corner under the User Menu on the PEBA homepage (you'll need to be logged in to see the menu).
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